The following is a transcript of the first ever Q&A panel discussion with seven detransitioners filmed on Detrans Awareness Day 2023. Seven detransitioners speak publicly and answer questions from the audience at a film screening of the documentary No Way Back: The Realities of Gender Affirming Care.
The panel discusses the medical ethics of the gender affirmation model of care for gender dysphoria, and the untold harm personally endured by detransitioners Chloe Cole, Laura Becker, Luka Hein, Estella Suarez-Hamilton, Brian Wagner, Rachel, and Shape Shifter.
The panel answers questions from concerned parents about the relationship between gender distress, social contagion, trauma, and familial relationships, and panelists give advice about maintaining and repairing relationships with children and loved ones who are experiencing identity issues.
View the panel recording on YouTube here.
Panel moderator: How do you guys feel? Had you not seen [the documentary] before? Did it bring up any feelings for you guys?
Estella (female detransitioner): It brought up a lot of feelings for me. I medically detransitioned this past year and I was still maintaining my social transition, clinging on to that, and kind of hearing about the process of other detransitioners and even speaking to some people who are here today, learning how much commonalities we have with this journey. It makes you realize that “oh, well, maybe this is rare, but maybe this is not so rare as they're saying.” Especially when it comes to medical consequences. I can speak for myself with some of the effects that testosterone has had on my body—it's menopause, it's going through menopause at nineteen. And when your body's not ready for that. And there was like a list of that, the incontinence, not being able to hold your bladder, not being able to sleep because of heat flashes that are painful. It's ridiculous, thinking that a teenager should go through that, when they're just at the cusp of adulthood, so it brought up a lot of emotion realizing that I wasn't alone in a lot of that. I know that I had a conversation with Chloe earlier this year about heat flashes and that was the first time that I had spoken to anybody about the itchiness and the uncomfortableness at night and realizing that wasn't just me, you know, and that's what you hear a lot, a lot of people being like “oh, well it's just you, I guess it just didn't work out for you.” It's like, it's not just me, you know, this is something that could happen and it's exhausting. So, yeah.
Panel moderator: Can we just go down the line really quick and introduce, you guys can introduce yourself, so we know who you are and then we'll open it up for questions.
Shape (male detransitioner): Hi, I'm Shape. I'm a male detransitioner, gender non-conforming. You guys may know me from YouTube or Twitter, so this was pretty powerful, also triggering, but powerful.
Rachel (female detransitioner): I'm Rachel. I transitioned when I was like 25, lived as a “man” for like seven years, realized “oh I don't need to do this and I'm running away from other things,” so I went back to living as a woman, more or less, a year ago, and just kind of opened my eyes to kind of like the whole gaslighting of this “trans marketing” like it's you know they—well not to get too far into it, but the whole thing is weaponizing empathy to make people believe that “oh you have to affirm these kids that's the nice thing to do,” but long term, well, I think you guys know.
Brian (male detransitioner): Good afternoon, my name is Brian Wagner. In my early 20s, I had substance use disorders and mental health issues. I transitioned from male to female, I lived my life as a transgender woman for close to 10 years, I detransitioned upon sobering up and getting to see a psychologist that was not an activist. The most powerful part of this documentary for me personally was when it talked about Jung's “Shadow Self,” because I think for a lot of society and especially the trans rights movement, detransition is a reality that they're not ready to see or face or accept quite yet, so thank you.
Estella (female detransitioner): My name is Estella Suarez Hamilton. I gave an introduction already so…
Luka (female detransitioner): My name is Luka Hein and I transitioned as a minor at 16 and de-transitioned around six months ago when I was 20.
Laura (female detransitioner): Hey everyone. My name is Laura Becker. I was in the documentary. My hair was looking a little messed up at the time, I had dyed it too many home dyes, pink—thank you—for a little while it was—so yeah, some of you may know me from Twitter, Funk God Artist, and I designed some of the Detrans Awareness hats and shirts that some people might be wearing so that's what you may know me from.
Chloe (female detransitioner): I'm Chloe Cole and I'm somebody who also transitioned as a minor between the ages of 12 to 16. And I've been speaking out about my experience for not much longer than a year now, since I was 17.
Shape: I guess I should tell a little more about my story since everybody has. I transitioned in my early 20s as well, the first time I ever got any kind of mental health help was when I went to Fenway Health in Boston and they completely ignored my internalized homophobia, other comorbidities, and affirmed me, like there was no pushback. I got on estrogen pretty easily, but my mental health declined after that, but I attributed it to being in a “wrong body,” so unfortunately I got cleared for the sex assignment surgery. That deteriorated my mental health even further. I have complications after multiple revisions. I have urinary tract infections every month, that's why I was going to the bathroom like a million times. I am unable to have sex, I have osteoporosis, I haven't been able to get any help really from endocrinologists or even surgeons to reverse this. This is all one giant experiment I fell into when I was very vulnerable and not in a good emotional place. I definitely got sold lies and “hardware fixes” for my “software issues” that actually never went away. And my biggest push for transition was internalized homophobia, I just didn't want to be gay, because I was brainwashed from very young age that gay is bad and sinful, so the minute I realized I could escape my homosexuality, I latched onto the idea that I'm a woman, but I realized that none of those transitions solved any of my mental issues, in fact it made it worse, thank you
Panel moderator: Okay, does anybody have a question?
Audience member: Hi. Thank you all for being here, you're all very brave, and I probably follow mostly on Twitter or something. I think like a lot of parents whose kid is in this ideology, fortunately, my daughter so far has not said she wants to medicalize, but I can see just socially things sort of upping, which scares the hell out of me, because she'll be 18 next year, so I'm wondering if you guys had seen this documentary when you were 17 would it influence you [several panelists shake their head no] or is there anything that you would say to somebody at 17 who's in the grip that you like would help them like, you know, for body acceptance or whatever it would be, I would love to hear.
Estella: Yes, if I saw this documentary it would have made a difference. There are some people that are stubborn and very hard-headed and I was one of them, especially when you're 19, you think you know everything. If somebody says “oh you're gonna get menopause,” “oh I don't care,” you know, because you don't know what that means. The more information people get I think from first-hand, it makes a difference. I remember—and I said this prior to when we sat down—I didn't get top surgery. I was on testosterone for over seven years, and I was socially trans before that, and then a little bit after that, but I never went for top surgery. Specifically I can remember I watched a testimony of somebody who was transgender, they were a transman, so they were a female, and explaining that they had done all this surgery, and all this hormones, and everything, and it still—they were feeling like it wasn't resolving anything. And I remember he was this big buff bodybuilding guy and I was thinking “oh he's so beautiful I want to be like that” and he was like “don't do it, it will not fix your dysphoria” and so that gave me enough to just hold back, hold back. When I came to Los Angeles, there was no gatekeeping. I went to a very popular trans clinic down the street from here, and I was new in town. It was my first time going and talking to them, and they had an interview with me and like a car dealership, you get a packet of papers and you're good to go, like they have everything. But because I had seen the testimony, I thought “well let me just give myself some more time to think,” and the more you read about long-term and the more you talk about these surgeries and how they affect you in the end, the more you realize “well this is maybe not the most creative solution and this is probably not the most healthy solution,” so that's—I think it would make a difference, I think that absolutely this this film is a snapshot into history, and a good opportunity for people to get a different perspective. Especially because it's going from a leftist view too, so it's very nice to be able to digest that.
Brian: When I first transitioned, or started to, I specifically remember I saw the testimony of a man named Walter Heyer, he's an elderly man who I believe did in fact have the vaginoplasty and it didn't stop me. Thankfully, I never had that done, but I was well aware of it. But I was in a very delusional and ideological mindset, so I really don't think seeing this would have stopped me, I really don't. But I would have just told my former self to be careful what you wish for and don't rush into anything, because changing your gender it's not like you know, shaving your head, or you know, something like that, it's very difficult to undo and the further you go, the harder and harder… Rachel: One thing for me, in female social circles, I definitely felt like I got “cool points” for it and I was already in my 20s, and it's got to be ten times that when you're in high school, so I feel like almost anything you would say would just fuel it even more, because it's like “oh this is something you're not allowed to do,” and it's kind of risky, so that's more exciting. And I don't know if this would help, but one of the biggest reasons I detransitioned was because I realized I felt affirmed in my identity as a “man” when I was with my female friend group, but then as you get more and more masculine, they don't see you as a woman anymore, and your brain does literally change, like there is something different with the hormones, so any kind of feelings of belonging she gets like within her current social circle, just basically imagine losing all those female friend groups, because once you look like a man, it doesn't really work the same. So like I don't know, I'm not really even sure how to explain that to a kid, but like “would you do this if you were completely alone by yourself without the affirmation of all your friends?” And she'd probably say “yeah sure I would,” but people tend to socialize in gendered groups, so just imagine if she can't socialize with her current friends, because of the way that they see her as, like, a man, later on. I don’t know how better to describe that.
Chloe: So, I'm 18 now, I'm a legal adult and as many of you know, I travel around the country talking about this subject. And there's still a lot of things that I can't do legally, like I still can't buy marijuana, or nicotine products, or alcohol. I can't rent a car. I can't even rent a hotel room. Because I'm under the age of 21. And yet, at 13, I was allowed to make the decision to change my sex. But I really don't think that 18 is just some magical age where all of a sudden you're capable of, maybe legally doing something, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you really fully understand what you're doing. I mean, the estimate right now is that most people's brain development finishes at around the age of 25, and it's probably much later for a lot of other people. But brain development aside, there's still a lot of things that people at the age of 18, at the age of 25, and even beyond, don't know about the world. When you're young, you don't really have a lot of knowledge or experience having to do with the world, and I was lucky to find out that I wanted to have kids at the age of 16, and to stop transitioning then, but not a lot of women figure that out until much later now.
Luka: I think particularly when you have a child going into this and you're worried about them heading down the path of medicalization, every situation is different, but presenting a different perspective, I feel like, couldn't hurt. They may not listen, because young people tend to be rather stubborn, but it couldn't hurt. And you know your kid doesn't stop being your child when they reach 18. You still need to be there, and let your concerns be known, with care, and compassion, and a genuine concern for their health and well-being. Keeping that line of communication open, to be that safe adult for your child, even when your child is an adult, is something that young adults still need, everyone needs, to a certain extent. And there's gonna be young people who maybe didn't transition and they reach 18, and rush into stuff, but I don't think it's acceptable to give up on them just because they maybe won't listen or they're hard-headed. If anything, that's when you need to be more compassionate and really keep that line of communication open, because they deserve for you to keep trying.
Laura: Yes, so I think that this documentary definitely would have impacted my perceptions, because although I had a lot of magical thinking, was naive, very stubborn, I was also very overwhelmed and we all started to know the kind of common wisdom “kids need structure.” Everyone needs structure, we need to order chaos, because things are very overwhelming. And I was overwhelmed, that's a lot of what passive suicidal ideation is—just being overwhelmed and your brain goes to this solution, this fantasy solution of escape, so it can deal with it at that moment, and transition is very similar, the transition fantasy. So I think I really was hungering to be helped. I was very alone, from peers and family, and I really wanted a safe adult to really sit down with me and listen to everything, and tell me that they knew how to help. Not in a pushy way, or in a controlling way, but in a way that allowed me to feel like myself, and I just never really got that, because my parents, by the point when I was 19, when I transitioned, they were exhausted, and they were not very equipped to deal with it, and there was some abuse as well, to me, psychologically. So they just kind of did emotionally sort of “give up,” and because I was so stubborn, they said “okay.” And the thing is you know, you just kind of get used to people not seemingly really understanding you, you know. Teachers didn't understand, therapists just—low quality, low, shallow, shallow understanding and so they'll say “yeah you're valid” or like “sure you can, are you sure you want to do it? Yeah okay, you know, maybe it'll help, because you're already so f-cked up, you're already so mentally ill anyway,” so they were very desperate too, my parents. But I was suicidal and had unprocessed trauma—PTSD—so, definitely keeping that connection, I know it's very difficult, but still listening and still being there, and not giving up is this inevitable outcome that “this person is just going to be messed up and they're disabled and they're mentally ill and that's their identity” and trying not to see your child as broken, because I saw myself as a broken human being that didn't deserve love or was capable of achieving happiness, so of course you're going to go to desperate measures, like surgical interventions. So I would say this documentary would have really been a relief to me, because it just provided so many calming, intelligent, rational adults that are experts in the field, they know what they're talking about. It just would have relieved my existential anxiety and overwhelm to know that there is an alternative because I thought that there wasn't. I thought it was either “I'm inevitably going to kill myself and I don't want to live anymore as myself,” or “if I transition maybe that'll help, I'm doubtful about it, pretty hopeless, maybe it'll help.” I didn't realize until several years too late, I mean too late in a short-term sense, for the surgery and hormones, that there were alternative pathways, and so I have been able to cure my gender dysphoria and treat my suicidal ideation and PTSD, still working on that one, that one takes some time, but yeah, thank you.
Shape: Yeah, this definitely would have helped me. A lot of things did resonate with me, specifically how autistic people think “black and white.” I didn't feel like I could have existed on a spectrum of a gender while being a biological male. Also the way that's like, I really got obsessed with transition when I found out that it was a “possibility,” so it kind of clouded my entire judgment. Also it's the first time I've heard how dysphoria shifts, so you fix kind of like one part of your body and then you get obsessed over another part, and that actually never went away—I'm still obsessing and experiencing body dysmorphia. Yes, it would have definitely helped me, because at the time I didn't know that many trans people, and definitely didn't know anything about detransitioners, I've heard a little bit, but all the stories were like “well those people were never trans on the first place,” you know, the same things they're telling me right now, so it's a very important documentary, it was pretty well balanced, I'm glad it was not really a radical documentary, it was very factual, so I think that it could help a lot of people.
Luka: I also just wanted to add that when it comes to a parent talking to their child about this, regardless of the age of the child, or anyone in general really, it's important to remember that only telling someone “yes” and telling someone “yes, you're valid” and only affirming them and only saying “yes” is not an act of love. That's not what love is. Love is not giving in to every whim and only saying “yes.” Love is putting up those boundaries and saying “no,” and having to keep someone safe, even when they might be upset at you for it, because only saying “yes,” and only going down one path, and only affirming, isn't love, it's enabling, and I feel like that's just something that parents need to understand with this.
Panel moderator: Thank you, we're going to have another question.
Audience member: Sometimes clinicians tell parents that if you insist too much, if you try to show your children a different reality, they will dig their heels in even further. [Some panelists nod.] What is the difference between the things that do that, versus the things that you think can actually bring on a shift in understanding?
Rachel: I think it's tricky, because I feel like I had to actually, unfortunately, transition to be grounded back in reality, because you’re told all these things—the thing with transition is it's sold as this magic cure, like the snake oil to cure anything, because we don't really understand what gender is anyways, and we haven't really done this experiment culturally. There are a couple people who did it, like, way early in the 1900s, like a handful of people, but it was out of reach for most people until medical science today, so there's this huge placebo effect, and when people have these different mental illnesses, we don't really know a lot of time how to solve them, but the thing is, the power of belief works really well, and transition, there's like this whole “gender euphoria” thing with testosterone, it is very euphoric. How do you bring people back to reality without them having to actually go through it? I think, and this is the tricky thing, I think that's why we're gathered here, is that we don't really hear the downsides of transition, right, we only hear about “oh, this is this euphoric thing that's gonna be life-changing, affirming, it’s going to be this person's real authentic self, and it makes us all good people for affirming, you know these trans kids because you know we have to save them from themselves from suicide.” I don't know, I think just sharing stories of like people who have gone through transition who were, or maybe still identify as trans, but found “hey, like there are some issues with this and there are other ways we can deal with this,” whether that's recognizing there's maybe autism, maybe there's internalized homophobia, there's other kinds of traumas, I think just people being more aware that there's this other side of transition that isn't the the “rosy” side of transition.
Estella: To understand your question, like “how do you avoid them from being you know upset that you're showing them the the other way,” and I remember the mindset that I was in at 19, at the time, I came out on social media because I knew that my parents would give me pushback and I just wanted to just spring it on them and just not give them any chance to have any kind of push back to me. So I remember my mother telling me “You'll never be able to fully get a penis! You'll never be able to impregnate a woman!” all these different things that were logical arguments and I was just like “No no, Buck Angel has a penis!” you know, all these different things, and I just wanted her to hear me, I just wanted her to hear what I thought was going to be a good idea, and I think that maybe a good solution would be “Okay, well, if you want to show me your resources or propaganda or whatever, then I would like you to watch some resources that are from my side” and then that way they could feel listened to and you could see what they're actually looking at and then give them an opportunity “Okay we watched it now please would you watch this documentary with me, or would you read some of the side effects and we'll go in and see ‘Do you know what a cyst is?’ ‘Do you know where those come from?’ ‘So here are all these different side effects.’ ‘What does atrophy mean?’ ‘When a woman goes through atrophy, is it just their uterus or is it their bladder? And all the muscles that are along with that?’” because that's something I didn't know until probably about a year ago, and I'm 27, and I should have been—a doctor should have sat down and talked to me about those, but that never happened, so if you had like a little “give and take” maybe that would be helpful, that's the best solution I can think of right now, in this moment.
Luka: I think it also is, you know, it's somewhat inevitable that when you give pushback, sometimes these kids are going to be upset. It is natural in child development for each age group, is there are boundaries, and it is very natural for kids to push against those boundaries in a healthy way, and it is the job of the adults to make sure that those boundaries are still maintained and that the kid can express that pushback in a healthy way. It's unfortunate with this issue that we've seemingly, as a society, not only we just removed the boundary to push against, but put a medical system there in place. But sometimes when you push back, they're gonna be upset, and they're gonna need a space to really express that, because you know when they are upset, that is an emotion that they are having regardless of if, you know, as an adult, you feel like maybe the reason is stupid, or they're overreacting. To that child, that's a very real experience, that they are very upset about this. And whether that be that they just need some space to go blow off some steam, or they need you to be there as a compassionate adult to explain to them why you did what you did, or they just need someone to listen, it is still a parent or adult's job to do that with a sense of care, because you know you can't force someone to realize things, but you can be there, and you can be there in the best way that that kid needs. And that's going to be different for every kid, and some of them are just, they're gonna be stubborn, they're gonna be upset for long periods of time, but I think just for this issue, we can't just throw out that responsibility that even if a kid is upset, as long as you are doing what you're doing with care, and they are able to process that emotion of being upset, that that is still a good thing, because you know the parents have a lot of emotions in this and they deserve a space to process those as well. The kids are going to have a lot of emotions, and we really have seemingly taken away that space that they need to process those to come to the realization that maybe you know “hey maybe my mom isn't pushing back because she's hateful, maybe she's concerned” or you know the parent being “maybe my kid isn't acting out because you know I told them ‘no’ but maybe they're acting out because there is a deeper issue there and they are crying out for help.”
Laura: Yes, that's exactly what I was thinking. I just wanted to add on to the idea of boundaries. What I often tell parents is, you know, this isn't palatable to hear, but the reality is that whether you tiptoe around—I've known parents that tiptoe around every little thing and they're walking on eggshells all of the time and it's extremely stressful—and I know parents who just get right up in there and take charge and say “no I'm the parent and I'm doing this” and I've known both sort of methods being taken and it is up to the individual parenting style, and the relationship you have with the child, but the reality is that as Lukas said, pushing back against authority and against parental wisdom is natural, normal, and even healthy. It can be an opportunity to further develop the relationship, because a child needs to learn how to manage their emotions. They need to learn how to take “no” for an answer, they need to learn how to look critically at other people's perspectives, and so it's very difficult. But repair is the other side to preserving a relationship. There will be conflicts, sometimes severe conflicts and damage will be done to the relationship, and so I think a lot of parents are focused so much on not damaging the relationship, which is understandable, but once it is damaged, I think that's when a lot of people might get into a really worse situation than if they had focused more on just the long run, you know, each little incident or confrontation is a smaller battle in a longer war, a war of preserving a relationship and having just a healthy life for everyone involved. I think focusing on “how do you repair,” learning how to repair with your child is going to be critical, because it might be a very long period of time where they're processing things and if you act resentfully towards them, or bitter, or start punishing them, overly criticizing them. This is a more severe version of what may happen, but I had a parent who would verbally abuse me and gaslight me about it, and you know, I understand that they were angry and they were emotionally dysregulated, and that shouldn't have happened, but once it did happen, there was another opportunity there, the real work could have lied in the repair, that they had an opportunity to repair their relationship and further understand my perspective, but instead of doing that, they would gaslight me about it, and say that it was my fault, and say that never happened and that they did nothing wrong and in fact, I was, you know, punishing them or being a b-tch to them, you know, it was like very manipulative, that really damaged me, to feel it was all my fault, no matter what I did. Any emotion I had was unacceptable, and so whether it's arising to the level of like verbal abuse, or just—it's a spectrum of behaviors—but being able to repair and to acknowledge, you know, “I understand that this is painful for you” and not adding a “but” into it or like “but I feel this way” or like “but you're not listening” or like “you're so difficult, you're so difficult to deal with” you know, something I've heard a lot. Really listening, and allowing them space so that they can start to trust you again, because the more you push when there's already been a damage, a fracture to the relationship, the further and further away they're going to get, and then you might try to cling on even more, they're going to keep going. So it is inevitable that there will be damage, and I do think it's more prudent in the long term to think about the bigger picture of the relationship, and you may even lose what many people consider to be the biggest battle of all, which is when they get testosterone, when they get a prescription for hormones, when they get surgery, when they become an adult and they do something permanent, the reality is that even that is only a battle in the long-term war. There is life after the surgeries, obviously none of us advise doing it, but I think a lot of parents are so focused on just preventing that surgical outcome that they may lose sight of other ways to better the relationship, and once gender is over, what if they forget about gender, what if you forget about gender, what would that even be like? Are you consuming so much of your life based around that? Is there anything else in your marriage but just talking about the kids' gender problems, for example. And I'm not criticizing anyone, but I feel, you know, think about the long term, and things come and go, you know.
Shape: I'll be quick, I feel like one thing I've learned being in trans and detrans community, a lot of us have childhood trauma and if your kid thinks that they may be trans, maybe there's some trauma you don't know about, maybe you failed to protect them from predators, maybe you're the source of the trauma, because a lot of parents have been traumatized as kids themselves so they have all those personality disorders that they kind of transfer to their kids, so sometimes you need to look at yourself as well before communicating better with your child. Also unfortunately right now a lot of trans activists such as Jeffrey Marsh are teaching children online that they should go “no contact” with their parents if parents try to push back on transgender identity, which is completely crazy. It's pretty much emotionally manipulating parents to agree to support their transition, which sucks.
Chloe: Right. I mean, I agree that as a parent there are going to be some things that you'll have to do for your child that you may not necessarily want to, that they may not necessarily want, or that might not be the best for your relationship in the short term, and for a lot of parents this does involve taking away all internet devices like their computers, iPads, phones, whatever else might give them internet access, and I think in most cases this is a good approach, but I think that if you're going to take something away, you have to replace it with something. A lot of these kids, the problem is a lot of them are addicted to the internet, because they were introduced to at a young age, and these devices are very stimulating, and for a lot of kids, especially kids who may not necessarily have a lot of friends at school, it can give them a sense of community online, but I really don't think that the internet and technology in general is really appropriate developmentally for most kids and teens, and a lot of these kids, they don't feel like they really belong to any communities in person, they don't really have any friends at school, a lot of them are bullied, many of them aren't really active in clubs, or sports, or extracurricular programs. If you're going to take away this one big thing from them, you have to replace it with I think one of those, which they should be in already.
Brian: Yeah, just real quick, I think one of the things that would have helped me in the beginning was if I had just gotten out of my woke echo chamber at my college, like if I had someone took me surfing, or gone dirt biking, gotten into some kind of rigorous exercise, I think that would have really helped, but yeah it's true. My psychologist, when my dad wasn't down with it, she was like “eh, you just won't have a father anymore” and I cut him out of my life for many years and I regret that now but, you know, had I just gone camping with my dad a couple times, or just listened to—I mean once I started listening to—it's really corny, but I started—I listened—there was two podcasts with Joe Rogan that I listened to as a trans, I was like “no no no, I'm still a man, I like man things,” and you know, not that women can't like, you know, MMA fights and, you know, certain things, but, you know it really realized that, and being sober, I was like “I made a huge mistake,” and yeah, take your kids out in nature.
[Time is reached, panel ends. Panel moderator thanks panelists, and informs the audience about current bills being considered in the legislature.]